The New York suburbs are often funny about real estate signs. One town won't allow a sign with a company name, allowing only "For Sale By Broker" or "For Sale By Owner" on the panels. Another municipality prohibits anything bigger than 12" x 12". Some places ban signs altogether, while others have rules rendering them useless, such as one that will only allow them in a front window. On a set back home that does nothing. One local city is OK with "For Sale" signs but outlaws "Sold" signs.
In every one of these municipalities, I have seen chintzy yard signs that remain up for weeks and sometimes months by home improvement companies, painters, fence installers, garage door technicians, and many other trades. I have never understood why they are permitted and my sign is not. Actually, I do understand, and it is not cool.
It amazes me that a municipality-the government- can abridge what I put on a sign or can restrict me from having a sign at all. It is absolutely contrary to the first amendment, and makes these towns more like patriarchal fiefdoms than governments that are out for the highest and best for the citizenry. Now, there may be a few who find real estate signs to be distasteful or clutter the view. But the constitution doesn't exist for them to have a good view or have environs that conform to their particular taste. It exists to protect my freedom of expression and ensure that commerce can be promulgated.
Big companies with large market share in these areas have no desire from what I can see to change the law. It enables them to keep status quo. If I busted my hump and a few of my signs sprang up it might shift the balance of power. They can't have that. Homeowners probably like the law too, because yard signs can distract, or because their absence makes it appear that nobody wants to move from their idyllic 'burb. Gag me. That doesn't make it right.
The right to self expression and to post my message without the state's interference is not something that can be voted on or zoned out. It is an inalienable right. The "tyranny of the mob" does not grant or deny rights. Rights are rights. And you can't bestow a right on a garage door guy and deny it to a real estate broker. I know of no sign restriction that ever held up in court. They exist because we are too busy earning a living to have our day in court. For now.
Yes, some of the local towns are funny about signs. But I'm not laughing.
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Phil - Go to the council meetings and tell them that you won't be supporting their businesses either. For starters. Then, if they don't get that tell them that you won't support the local business community either. Sometimes they just have to be told.
I wonder how strictly they enforce these restrictions? Some cities here don't allow "Open House" signs in the street and a couple of years ago Los Angeles proper jumped in. No one pays attention and I have never seen them picked up. Although the way things are going there may soon be some action since City has gone nuts with fines to collect every penny they can.
Jane, around here the code guy will pull it out and throw it out.
Don, I have a plan. I just have to handle a few things first. But I have a plan.
Phil,
I understand the angst to some degree. NAR survey results suggest 15% of our calls orginate from the sign.
Steve
Seems like the cities would be so overburdened with real things to do they would not be so hard to deal with.
Hi Phil,
To be honest, the lack of signage prevents some brokerages from showing their dominance. In White Plains, there are two dominant brokerages who think they own the world. Ironically, both brokerages have "green" signs. The underdog with a blue or red or whatever sign looks lost in the pack. I think having a few signs around against a sea of dominant brokerages might have the opposite of the intended effect. But that's just me.
last year in our area of Virginia, a realtor in my office got a notice that she was being fined for "unlawful excavation". The offense: One of her temporary signs that you stick in the ground with two thin metal rods. The fine: $20,000. At first she had no idea what they were talking about. But they had decided to target realtors who had temp signs in yards (Not big post signs...the little ones). It got stranger when she found out that if the owner put the sign in, it was ok. But if the hands that installed the sign belonged to a realtor, then it was "illegal". It was also during the run up to last year's November elections and there were political signs everywhere. We all howled together and they decided that it was not actually illegal and the charges were dropped. The amazing thing was they based the charge solely on who belonged to the hands that put the sign in the ground...not the act itself. Simply amazing!
Phillip. No one has stepped on you rights. HOA and communities have every right to dictate how signs are used or not used in their communities. Would really want folks to just have freedom to place whatever they want where ever they want? I wouldn't.
Philip, Sounds like it really impedes your business and hurts the home owners. If you could get a group of home owners involved, then you maybe they would change the laws.
This is one of those Hmm moments for me that doesn't really make a ton of sense. The courts recently struck down the laws against someone falsely claiming to be a decorated veteran because that was a First Amendment violation to abridge their freedom of speech, even when knowingly false, but we as a profession have to walk this tightrope of sign regulations community by community to the fair execution of our trade. I don't have objections to saying no larger than a certain size to prevent 4 x 8 sheets of plywood being used, but this, must be x number of feet from the curb, or only in the window stuff just seems beyond common sense. No matter how tony a neighborhood might be, everyone sells sooner or later.
Hi Phil, we have a few towns on Long Island that also do not allow For Sale signs. It's ridiculous! HOA developments don't allow them either. That I can understand.
"makes these towns more like patriarchal fiefdoms"
BINGO!
Also, don't forget that political campaign signs are exempted from these restrictions.
Most of my buyer leads come off the signs. When I can't post a sign in front of the property, it hurts business. I agree that this is a breach of government duty to promote a intra and interstate commerce.
They must really not like me -- I sometimes put price riders right on my lowest priced properties!
Lenn did a reblog and saw this post there.....commenting here....our town allows for sale signs, but now we cannot have open house riders for more than an afternoon.....if we leave our sign, it's gone.....no directional arrows with home for sale in the arrow.....we also need to pull an expensive permit to post a large temporary subdivision sign on the builders property.....not town owned, but the builder's property.....eventually I can see the "no sign rule" coming to Franklin MA....and this is a country area.....cow country.
Phil:
Although Bryant makes a good point about homeowner associations having the right to not want signs strewn all over the neighborhood, some of the town rules about this are aggravating. They will pick up real estate signs and discard them however there are signs all over town saying "We Buy Ugly Houses" and "Earn Big Money Part time" that are left for months. Also, all of the political signs on everyone's lawn? Those are not particularly attractive.
Phil...
Actually, my understanding of the First Amendment issue is that municipalities can control the shape, size, etc. of the sign but not the message ... if it's in YOUR OWN YARD!
When you place a sign on another piece of property, you can fall under commercial regulations. I have more to say about this ... but I'll save it for a later post!
Phil, it is interesting to hear how different municipalities have various sign rules. We have two sign laws in my area. No signs on public thoroughfares and more recently we have to call Miss Utility before installing something larger than a step-in sign.
I'm no constitutional attorney (although I did take ConLaw as part of my Political Science degree) but I don't believe the first amendment would apply in this case. Your signs are a form of commerce, not speech in the first amendment sense. Commerce is regulated, speech is not.
If your argument were accepted it would mean that all sign ordinances could be ruled unconstitutional. I, for one, don't want to see that happen.
If other types of business are allowed to have signs and you aren't you could probably make a compelling case under the equal protection clause.
J Phillip,
Frustrating to have difference sign sizes. In my parents hometown in FL they made them so small, you almost can't read them and there is a large senior population - less readability.
We are spoiled here in the south, where we can put up huge signs. (We like things big.) The directionals have a few more rules!
Also, haven't run into a single family home neighborhood HOA that has no sign rules, no directionals maybe, but you are allowed to have a sign.
So, please don't tell them!
All the best, Michelle
PS - Maybe your sign manufacturer's are behind all these sign rules.
Julia, I know of a number of cases where these statutes have been struck down in court. Even the commerce clause does not allow municipalities to rule by fiat. Moreoer, laws that encumber commerce are an anathema.
Michael, what they do on public property is one thing, but private property is another matter.
Richard, I look forward to that.
Claudette, it is a double standard.
Barbara- fight it.
Keith, it is anti-commerce. Indeed.
Lenn, it specifically targets our industry. And I see election signs up 4 months after the vote takes place.
Jackie, HOA can make their own rules, they aren't the State.
Liz, Ohio is actually where one of the most noteworthy court decisions was on this, and guess who won?
Scott, I'm not sure home owners feel strongly enough about it. If it doesn't affect them right now they seldom get inspired.
BB- HOAs are private and can do as they please. Municipalities lose this argument in court.
Kathryn, only government could be the cause of such a waste of time for all.
Ruthmarie, I see it differently. I don't mind all their signs- they help mine stand out.
Jim, one would think they have better things to do, but many of these laws are from 30 years ago because people long gone had a pet peeve.
Steve/Joel- anything that undermines honest commerce is wrong.
Here in Miami there is a famous city known as Coral Gables. The Realty signs are about 10 inches by 8 inches, and you cant even leave your garbage can in front of the house. Instead, you pay higher taxes so that garbage men can go behind your house to carry to the truck. So imagine the fines for trying to leave signs throughout that city!
Houston does have a law about sign in public right of way and similar places. And some upscale areas have rules about how you can display advertising signs but I haven't found the rules to be too extreme here.
JP - while not claiming to be a constitutional scholar, there appears to be an equal protection clause violation if certain types of business can have their name/logo on their signs while you are not.
J Philip, In some small developments here, the new home builder who owned the land determined who could put For Sale signs up in his subdivisions. While he had at least 15 per each entrance and Lot Signs on empty land, resale agents were lucky to be allowed to put a small sign in the window of the home they had listed. He wanted more attention and got it! The CC&Rs drive how signs can be placed within the community now.
I'm not saying that you aren't justified in your annoyance, just that I don't think a first amendment argument is going to work (and it shouldn't).
You got me thinking and I found this link:
http://www.cfif.org/htdocs/legal_issues/legal_activities/policy_papers/sign_ordinances.pdf
which includes this quote (page 10, emphasis mine):
On the other hand, ordinances that prohibit or regulate signs without regard to the messages or information displayed face lesser scrutiny and are generally upheld. Thus, limitations on size, number, construction, placement, setback from rights of way, and illumination are usually upheld, as long as they are reasonable, rational, and do not eviscerate the effectiveness of signs as a medium of communication.
They are basing this assessment on prior court decisions which would seem to indicate that you'd have a case if they are allowing some commercial signs but not others (which was my original point) OR if the ordinances were "eviscerating the effectiveness" of your signs. Sounds like, in your case, you could make a point that the restrictions aren't reasonable or rational.
They should not be able to regulate what is on the owners property, however directional signs are a different thing.
Phil - Just like municipalities, many of our homes are in a Homeowner's Association here. They also dictate what can and cannot go onto the signs, or yards. What can we say? If you fight it, it will cost you more money than having multiple type signs for multiple towns.
Hi Phil,
The reason I said that was that there is kind of a mob mentality about things. "Well - look at all their signs - they MUST be the best!" People flock like lemmings to what appears to be the 'best' and the best is often defined as who has the most. When I first started there was one dominant listing brokerage in White Plains. The signs were EVERYWHERE and everyone knew them as a result and called them first. The few signs for "other" brokerages were largely ignored. That landscape has changed, but it was a very, very long time in coming and I don't really think signage had much to do with it. But I do think that signage had a lot to do with them staying on top for so long. People didn't question them because they appeared to be #1.
Interesting twist - if the signs are up too long - you look as though you can't do your job. I think it can be tricky.
This is always an issue depending on community. The common areas are always an issue as they are owned by the community this being private property. The communities seem to find a way around the rules set by city and state.
Phil,
Interesting debate. I'm always humored by the differences in zoning and yard signs living Texas, where we have limited zoning. The northeast on the other hand, my goodness. It seems like city officials spend more time making rules than governing. Perhaps that is their way of doing their jobs.
JP - We have a city with a large development in it that has the most INSANE rules about signs. They say they are mirroring city policy, but they aren't. No headway can be made and they must have every REALTOR in the know angry at them by now, but they have no desire to change. We feel your pain...
This time of year it's especially noticeable due to the addition of campaign signs at every corner along with ours. I'll admit there'll all ugly but there's a reason we still need signs, they work. I just go along with whatever guidelines are presented and leave it at that. When I retire I want to be the officer enforcing the sign ordinance!
In every one of these municipalities, I have seen chintzy yard signs that remain up for weeks and sometimes months by home improvement companies, painters, fence installers, garage door technicians, and many other trades. I have never understood why they are permitted and my sign is not.
That's simply not fair. I'm surprised they can get away with that.
Julia in message 18 makes some very good points. While it is frustrating (and odd) that the towns won't allow agents/agencies' names and numbers, a town doe have every right to have some ordinances regarding signage viewable by the public. If your town had no ordinances the main street could look like the Vegas Strip! Would you really want your CPA or lawyer neighbor to be able to have a lit up 20 x 30 foot sign next to your house for their home office?
There are committees that address these issues that hold open meetings. The only thing to do is become involved when there is an opportunity to voice your opinion.
Often, if you look and understand how the laws and rules transfer to application and enforcement, you can find loopholes after reading the ordinances and asking lots of questions. I only look for loopholes when I come against something that is political or not accurate. That being said, the subject is pretty well regulated and spelled out. Helpful HINT: the wording has a lot to do with signage rules. Choose the right words and code may not apply. Good Luck
I remember when I worked in Northern Westchester, we had 5 different types of signs. The signs that said For Sale By Broker, the ones that were 1 sqft, the ones that were bigger, and the ones that were shorter. Oy! It's crazy.
I agree in thinking that if a town will allow a painter or contractors sign to be up, no matter what size, they should allow the same for Real Estate Brokerages. It almost seems that the town is against Realtors who are trying to make a living.
I never understood why some towns in NWest would allow a sign to be placed on a property, but it had to be a generic For Sale By Broker. How does that help?
We deal alot of the same issues in Texas (or at least my market) espcially with open house signs and pointer signs. Some cities/neighborhoods require special signs in different shapes and colors. Some cities only allow signs from Friday 5pm - Sunday 8pm. Its tough keeping up with all the different ordinances.
La Jolla, is part of the City of San Diego, but it doesn't allow real estate signs. You can have an open house sign up, but only for a short period of time during the day. Lots of communities have sign ordinances until one of the city managers or employees needs to sell their home and then.... ~ Susan
Great post!
I agree with many of the others - you'd think there are enough REAL problems out there for cities to address.
Phil - In Manhattan New York, there is NO SIGNS anywhere when we host an open house, we will not have drive by buyers, buyers usually come prepared with the print out from internet or addresses they wrote down on a piece of paper. No signs, no problems, no grieve from me.
I never really understood this. And, I'm on your side. Let me know when solve this issue\ because then I can start putting up my signs, too.
I do think "signs" especially a lot of them do look tacky in yards/neighborhoods. I think each town has a rule/law about signs so I always check first.......
patricia/Seacoast NH
Our town doesn't just collect the signs that violate the ordinance, they fine you $200 a pop. And to think my taxes are going to pay a city employee to drive around on Saturday looking for directional signs to open houses, because we are only allowed one directional sign per open house, and it can't be more than 6"x18". It's ridiculous!
Hi Phil,
Great post (not a sign post off course, that would be illegal), we have 11 municipalities within a relative small area, most are okay with for sale signs, but one requires signs to be smaller than others, most of our areas do no longer allow directional signs at all unless they are on private property with confirmed permission of the property owners.
some developments have covenants about the size and design of the sign, and require us to use their sign installers. there are many larger buildings that do not allow signs at all anymore (not even an notice board).
Good thing we have the new way to have signs everywhere (the Internet)
The part that is my pet peeve is that everybody else can and does whatever they want as far as signage or graffiti, and that is okay...... I guess it is all part of the golden rule, (the political one) whoever has the gold sets the rules....
Happy Selling
Wow, we don't see that often here at all! We rarely have any rules against real estate signs. One gated subdivision doesn't allow FOR SALE signs on lots but they do on homes. Another won't allow any signs at all. But we don't see the extremes you do.
Philip, sometimes it is signs out in medians and traffic which are prohibited, but home sign prohibition at the home of any kind seems ridiculous...
We have twp.s that quickly take any directionals that you put up !!!! It makes it difficult to get exposure for homes in larger subdivisions !
This is a major issue in Silicon Valley with each city having different regulations and the state weighing in with their own regulations. We're faced with cities that want some signs, no signs, or only arrows. The biggest issues arise when local agents don't follow the sign ordinances and we're faced with the wrath of the local city council.
In Los Altos, there was a recent review of the sign laws and we're faced with restricted hours and days. Part of this was driven by agents who did a few really bad things including:
- Putting up open houses signs when no home was open
- Putting up 10, 20, or 30 signs just to make it look like they're everywhere
- Putting a sign on all four corners of an intersection when the law allows one
In my experience, you need 3 or 4 signs, that's it. If you're trying to impress the neighborhood, do it with postcards. A few bad apples are really spoiling the barrel for the rest of us.
I understand the sentiment behind not wanting to clutter up sidewalks with dozens of yard signs making the neighborhood look like the cork board at your local grocery - BUT, if that is really the intent why single out real estate agents? Can you clarify something for me - does this apply to signs in a homeowners yard or on the sidewalk?
Phil, I've had Open House signs in front of a community yanked out and held at the gatehouse. No signs are allowed within gated communities. And, the same thing here, the size of the sign and the printing varies from city to city.
Phililp - well you have certainly hit a chord here.
We have sign prohibitions in a number of areas (not counting the gate communities which are unqiue unto themselves), and it gets rather difficult to keep track and to know what you can and cannot do (e.g., type of sign where it can be placed, size, etc.). Of course political signage is exempt and the worst offender of all, and the most offensive IMO. Some towns are pretty strict and collect signs while others are not so organized.
There is lots of grumbling about the "Sign Nazis" as they are called (yes it's politically incorrect but commonly used).
Jeff
It is a headache to keep track of the different rules in different cities. I think it makes for an interesting argument.
Yes, we are big on fiefdoms next door to you in Fairfield County CT too. One town determined that real estate sign placement was a revenue generating opportunity and requires a permit to install a sign. There are some special people who also pop up from time to time calling the town to complain when the signs don't match the regs.
My com
munity, North Oaks Minnesota is owned by the residents, that includes the streets. We do not allow any signs. Painters, politicians ect. signs are not allowed.
Its in the covenants that I agreed to, plain and simple. After a few years here I began to appreciate there are no street lights, signs or anything but homes. Everyone works with it, Realtors do very well here.
I have worked in my city without signage and support the will of the residents. Plain and simple, and forget the first amendment, it does not apply.
I must add, Realtors are the only people allowed to post signage in North Oaks,MN.
...our profession still depends very much on signage... thankfully, in most communities you still can install your for "sale sign" and even use "open house" signage... however there are some that heavily regulate, restrict or outright forbid all professional real estate signs... and the biggest joke of all, collect "open house" signs and hold them hostage for a "fee"... we are talking about temporary signage that is only there for a couple of hours!!!... how much could that bother you???... and I am absolutely certain that my signs look elegant compared to the often tacky political advertisements which hang around for weeks and months...